Beautiful Turkish girls

Turkish girls are beautiful. Turkish women are often educated and most of the times quite nice. In fact, I think they are perhaps some of the most loyal and best wives in Europe.  However, there is a problem with ladies from Turkey, if you are an American or British guy.

Take girls from Istanbul for example, they have a mix of exotic ancient people’s like from a fairy-tale or a primordial dream of what love is, yet often with a snowy complexion.

The fundamental reason why Western guys have a challenge to get mobile phone numbers of Turkish women and date them is, woman from Asia minor come from a radically different culture than you.  They are a Mediterranean culture which makes them usually warm and friendly, however, they are Muslim and this is a different religion than most Americans and English guys. I believe in the commonality of all people, however, culture plays a role in how people see the world.

Turkish Female Y DNA Haplogroups – This is science, so to say for sure a female from Asia minor has to look a certain way is very closed.

In theory, it should not make any difference, as ‘you are your religion’, however, for a long-term relationship this could be potentially a show stopper.

Meet a lady in a club or on the street and find out latter where she is from.

In my experience the relationships that work best are those that have two people who are most similar to each other.  I know people say opposites attract, but this only for the short-term.  I think people who are similar in beliefs attract and stay together longest.  It is just common sense. This has nothing at all to do with race or look, but rather world view. Birds of a feather flock together.  People who have different world views can become friends later in life if they stay together, but people who are similar,  fly.

Girl in a Turkish cafes, lounges or discos are there to relax with friend, not to get hit on by guys. If you want to meet a princess from a hikâye I recommend meet them during the day int he market and take them to the club later in the week. Or just go to a dance club they will be there with their girlfriends not an inner circle of mixed couples, which is not optimal for picking up a Güzel kız. By the way, Turkish for beautiful girl is Güzel kız.

There is a lot of debate about what a Turkish girl looks like.   Pour a Turkish girl into tight jeans and Western makeup and she could be the girl next door in Anytown, USA.
Below are some photos of “Turkish girls” lets say and can anyone tell me if they are real or just look like an exotic Eastern Mediterranean?

People say they can spot a Turkish girl in a crowd, bar, disco. They say a Turkish lady can be recognized in a photo on on a street corner. I disagree 100%. Although there is a general commonality of features from the Eastern Mediterranean because of adaptation of diet and climate, you would be surprised about the diversity in Turkey with female facial features. Come on Dr. Oz is Turkish, but dressed smart on his show he looks like another American.

Once you get a Turkish girl in Western clothes (or out of them, mind you) and her hairstyle and make up is like a European, it is hard to discern where in the world she is from.

For example if you see a Turkish girl in London with Parisian style you will not definitively be able to say where she is from. She is out of context.

The reason being The ancient people of Asia Minor are the Hittites, the Phrygians, the Cimmerians, Lydia, Caria and Lycia,  Anatolian and Thracian Turchia with the Seljuk Turks coming latter. Even if you have someone who is speaking the Turkish language they are only a percentage mixture of ancient peoples.

Turkish are 70% of the people that live in the borders of Turkey.  And mixed in that I would estimate the majority a mix.  Although 85% of Turkish people speak the people are a melting pot reflecting their history. Oğuz Turkic are famous but who are the others?

But even with the Turkish majority the question is, who are the Turks? Are they Seljuk Turks  or Aeolian and Ionian Greeks. Are they remnants of the Odrysian Kingdom or Levantines.

In addition to the Kurds there are a lot of Sephardic Jews, Armenians, and Greeks

The Turkish Constitution article 66 defines a Turkish person living in Turkey as a citizen.

Turkish girl looks

Turkish girls are actually from Asian origin, but over 1000 years there is big mix.  First, there are Ancient peoples, like the Hittites that are mixed in.  Then Byzantine for sure mixed in as well as others. So I have noted variation of looks between Turkish girls in the east and west of Turkey. Read some summaries of The Book of Dede Korkut to get an idea of this mix.

They basically have a very classic ancient world look.  They tend to have wide hips and thin waist.  Their faces are broad rather than long, like northern Europeans.  Turk girls are attractive and generally all around nice people. I really like their look, but on the other hand I think every woman in the world has her special allure, so do not ask me.

There are a number of reasons why women from Turkey are top for wives, they are a combination of sophisticated, sensual and have high morals. To date a girl with this combination of virtue in the west you basically have to be rich, a movie star or football player.

How to get a Girlfriend from Asia Minor

I will keep this short and sweet, go there, I did.

Here are some ideas:

  • Istiklal street or Cicek Pasaji maybe clubs next to each other to find a girlfriend.
  • I personally recommend 360 located in Istiklal Avenue in Taksim
  • Baykuş in Taksim.
  • Ask the hotel  concierge,  but make sure you specify nice girls or he will send you to Laleli after some Russian girl who are lets say ‘tourists’.
  • Go to clubs where you will find skinny young and hip girls there that listen to house music. I personally love DJ and house clubs.

Turkish girl risks – know them before you get their mobile number

The risk with Turkish girls is, however, small, that if you are looking for love, they could break your heart because they are looking for money not love. However, I think this is 100 times less than dating a cosmopolitan western girl.   Turkey was once called is the poor-man of Europe, I would not say that is true anymore. Maybe there are some women who would love to escape poverty, even if it means marrying a western guy. However, I do not see this as a real factor as Western Europeans and American girls have a high flight factor according to marriage statistics and this by far outweighs any chance a Turkish female would try to take advantage of you. Maybe this was more true years ago, but I have many Turkish friends and I can not see this.

Is this Cyprus, Greece or Turkey? – When your heart is moved by a girl from Istanbul you have to leap with your heard as much as your heart or down the road you will have relationship crossroads of choosing your culture or your love. Make sure you know what you are committed to. I married a girl from another culture, I choose love.

I mention this risk only because I know guys are concerned about this issue. But this issues is becoming more of a non issue, as the world is changing and I do not think it is a problem with ladies from Turkey, but some people in general. If you go to Istanbul or Ankara its like any city in the world, there are good and bad people everywhere. I personally love Istanbul and the Kapali Carsi or the Grand Bazaar, also go to the Sultanahmet Camii, try the food do it all. Do not go there to just pick up cell phone numbers of Turkish girls. Which is not bad mind you, just enjoy the city a bit and let destinies hand guide you, instead of going for the direct approach and playing the numbers game.

There are 37 million women in Türkiye, like 5 million in Istanbul alone and another 4 in Ankara. If you can not find a nice gal in Anatolia then you have to examine the way you pick up women.

Turkish girl’s names are easy to remember and most have a sweet shorten form and they are not written in Arabic script. This is all good for the linguistically challenged western guy like me (I actually have a language site, still).  They usually take names that mean something connected to natures. This is one of the first things you can talk to them about, that is what does their name mean. Some examples are  Melis, Berra, Ecem, Sibel, Tuana.

I spend a lot of time in Istanbul and the people there are very warm (I think it is the sun, similar to other Mediterranean cultures, watch the movie Mediterraneo and you will see what I mean).  The Istanbul girls are like western girls but a little warmers and more conservative. Which in my opinion is actually a good thing. For marriage or a you want a conservative bride, not some crazy women who will tell you how wrong you are all the time like many ladies in the USA.

I think this risk they will leave you in marriage is low if you look at marriage success rates compared to the USA.  I call this the flight factor, this is because many are still very traditional.  In fact, it is much lower than the flight factor of an American girl in general.

My conclusion is, Turkish girls are beautiful and educated but the difference in culture and economics could make a long-term relationship hard.  But with love all things are possible.

Published by Mark Biernat

I live in with family between two worlds, US and Europe where I create tools for language learning. If you found my site you probability share my passion to be a life long learner. Please explore my site and comment.

Join the Conversation


  1. It is good you write about Turkish girls and how they are for loving.

  2. Turkish girls are beautiful and sincere. As choices for girls from the Middle East girls from Turkey are wonderful.

  3. Well, I had a Turkish girl friend and she was really warm and kind:) my dudes really liked her much and i was about to make a marriage proposal. It is sad how we ended it.

  4. Turkish girls are beautiful. However, I think Azeri girls are more beautiful. They are gorgeous, emotional and fun. They look like typical Italian girls and I like Italian girls very much (being Italian) and Azeri girls (coz they look like Italian girls). This is my subjective sentiment.

  5. Turkish girls are very difficult. They are caught as you rightly say between 2 cultures. They, as modern women want the best ofthe western world yet they are indoctrinated from a young age to be suspicious of anything non-Turkish and as such they want to be free women but their upbringing divides their brain sothat their ultimate goal in life is marriage and housekeeping yet they say they want to be disenfranchised by being westernised.

    Also, lying is a CENTRAL part of Turkish female culture. I found this out myself after spending 5 weeks of my life in Turkey trying to rekindle relationships that weren’t really there in the first place – I was lied to! You must remember, the Turkish education system does not promote the same things as western education. You can equate modern Turkey to 1030s Germany. They see all non-Turks as threats and therefore enemies and as such the making of a person is often by how well they can beat (deceive) an enemy oftheir culture to gain respect by their peers. Thus, lying is all part of it.

    I used to respect Turkey, but I was used, deceived, lied to and about, manipulated and mocked by Turkish females for 6 years of my life before I finally went back to see if my theories abouttheir behaviour was correct or incorrect – they proved me right by behaving like immature, uneducated (despite their BScs, MScs etc), cruel, nasty, unintegral and dishonourable criminals.

    Trust a Turkish woman at your peril!

  6. Oh I forgot to mention, my longest lasting Turkish female ‘friend’ (whom I found a house for, a job, drove her everywhere, helped her find a university place at the London School of Economics and an internship in England in 2006 after 18 months of researching on her behalf and attending interviews in absentia of her…notto mention sending her all the expensive gifts she desperately asked me for for 3 years after she left the UK after meeting me originally…was actually the very same girl who stole money from my luggage when I was staying at her flat to pay for a new pair of shoes. That’s the Turkish girl!

  7. Wow…you really seem to dislike Turkish girls…. I know this world is full of stereotypes, but I would never say I hate an entire nation of guys… Your nationality does not define your entire character…

    1. Turkish gal, I am very sorry if this post seems this way. I think women from Turkey are great. I just pointed out that if you are a Western European for example there might be a different in culture. But if you read my post I write how educated and beautiful you gals are from Istanbul to all over Asia minor.

  8. Turkish girls re unique and very polite girls, charming and nice.
    I’ve been visiting Istanbul many times.
    I was in love with the way Turkish girls look and treat their. I hope to get Turkish girl for love and a bride.

  9. Thank you Luigi for yours words about Azeri girls however they are also Turkish as well as typical Turkish. Yeah an ancient times we have mixed with different nations but gene never changes. What about Turkish girls living in Turkey they really deserve the best. They are clever, flirtatious, serious and I like it. Nobody can love her husband like they do it.

  10. Former Turk lover: as a Turkish girl I have to say you are right about most of the things you said. a large extent of Turkish people see other nations as enemy but i guess this psychology is because of the bad education system that deliberately want Turkey to be a closed country. afraid and see like enemies.. but you cant say it is in our nature and you cant say they are all liars. of course we are not :)I had a french boyfriend and i never did anything you said . never take even a cent from him or use him!……and i wonder..if you claim to understand Turkish girls that good why you insisted for 6 years:S..

    1. As Turkey opens up more and more and eventually becomes EU, all this will change with time. I think Turkey and Turkish girls will be similar to European girls.

      1. I am a Turkish woman. I just wanted to write something too join the conversation.
        We care about morality,you can’t share everything with everyman or every girl, who comes to us life. If you do what are you going to give the special one to make him or her feel also special?
        course there are bad people and good people in the world.They lie,they cheat. etc But if a Turkish girl fell in love with you,she can do anything for u.She never thinks about the cost. I am in love with a Scottish guy ,who has 2 children from her ex-girl friend. I can do anything for that man and for his children. He is very clever,smart and funny. His children are adorable. We can talk about everything for hours without getting bored. Life is short. If you really love someone your culture or religion just makes your relationship delightful. Lot’s of religion days to celebrate:)) Also we already live in Türkiye with different cultures and different religions.It makes us colourful and strong.That s why also i love my country not because of sun,food,beauty..becouse of the ppl as well. You can find ourself dancing in greek music after a min, u can dance turkish folk music or doing headbang with iron maiden:)course there would be bad times aswell but this is life, u should fight with it for ur happiness and ur beloved ones happiness. You shouldnt complain what u dont get,u should focus what you got. When you need,it s really nice to know, u have shoulder to get rest on, who u are in love with and it also gives u relief,the shoulder owner also loves u deeply as well. I wish all of you happiness and health. Lot’s of love from İstanbul :))

  11. Hi everyone.. As a Turkish girl and supporting mostly a European mentality (and having a Spanish boyfriend for a long time) I should say that people can be bad,not trust-worthy or nice, good beautiful or so on..What makes people is not their origins but their personality.. I just want all people be can divide girls with physical appearance but not behavor or mentality..
    Best Regards

    1. Turkish girls with each generation are changing. At some point the EU will be like the USA, a melting pot and not one will be able to tell the difference or care.

  12. Turkish girls you mostly stupid searching for load of money , we have nice girls very nice girls but all of them snob and really hard to reach them so good advice from a real Turkish guy listen to me and try Ukrainian,German,Spanish or real Italian girls sorry I forgot Czech Republic 🙂 Moroccan girls are also so so friendly.

    1. Reply to OZ THE WIZARD
      That s really nice to read that,u are as a real turkish guy, u prefer other countries girls.U call Turkısh girls stupid.Yes u are so right.27.000 woman were very stupid to get married with a Turkish guy…They are asking help from the police for their protection to save their lifes and lot s of them already dead.
      I can understand from ur comment which type of man u are and I am glad to know that u wont be one of Turkish girl husband.Thanx for that.I wish u wouldnt prefer woman at the first place:((

  13. To TurkishGal and wwdad:

    From my experience of meeting, speaking, being in relationships with and being in Turkey/Turkish people I originally had a very open mind. Yes, not the ‘entire’ nation of Turkey are liars, but ‘from my experience’ there does appear to be a social and cultural undercurrent within the system of life in Turkey which results in the ‘majority’ of people there, especially the females’ being compulsive liars.

    I had my suspicions about my Turkish ‘friends’, whom I first met in 2003 but erased the friendship last year for quite some time. I could not, however, do what they did to me and not give me the benefit of any doubt about their behaviour. I could not apply my own western values onto them as being the way they see and do things and as such I had no choice but to allow them the opportunity to prove my instincts wrong – my going to Turkey in 2008 resulted in those same former friends of mine lying to me about such things as having cancer, having grandparents who were dying, having severe illnesses and diagnosed with epilepsy, concocting lies about me to better their family standing, theft, violence, deception , the list goes on…

    …fundamentally though, I learned that my upbringing, being nurtured in an environment of learning, honour, honesty, justice, fairness, integrity, credibility and tradition, allowed me to extend to those extremely cruel and selfish people all the qualities that I had been brought up with while they did not extend to me anything like that in return which speaks volumes not just about my culture and upbringing but the very same things in Turkey.

    It may all be well and good blaming a poor or lacklustre education system for this poor treatment, but to be frank, I had a poor education in UK terms, only really turning it around while at University and post graduation through personal experiences. From what I experienced people seem to be very much happy in the Turkish bubble of ignorance and arrogance that the state indoctrination system provides them with that individual development is stifled, and hence why relations between many Turks and people from my background can almost never work – for example, how could two people differ in their fundamental ideology to the extent where one person stands up against theft or ‘just lying’ whereas the other, t get them out of a situation says ‘just lie’ or steals things if they cannot get it through legal means. How too can a Turk lie and attempt to deceive in front of a person from the West in such a way as not to have the mental capacity to realise that the lies are so obvious that the Western person cannot see straight through the lies… that shows a HUGE degree of arrogance because lying to people is another way of saying “I don’t believe you’re intelligent enough to work out that I am lying so therefore I am going to lie because I believe I will deceive you successfully”.

    I would recommend going to Turkey, everyone must experience it at some time in my opinion – but also to experience what I experienced to come to your own conclusions – something which many Turks would not do because experiencing life outside of Turkey would only work to make those people realise that their world vision is highly likely to be picked full of holes (take Darwin’s Theory of Evolution and the development of the human race for example, not to mention the Armenian Genocide) that they would simply be incapable of assimilating into non-Turkish culture. How do I know this? Simple, I have had Turkish ‘friends’ in England and guess what, 90% of them do not even have a single English friends, instead they prefer to mix in their own circles, speak Turkish and whine about how cold English people are and how great Turkey and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was.

    1. This is a exceptional analysis of Turkish girls and Turkey. What I think is so good about your analysis is, not that I agree with every point but rather, it is based on your own personal experience, rather than something read in a book seen on the BBC. I think people should go to places, travel and meet people themselves and draw their own conclusion. I have my views about Turkey, a little more positive but the main thing is go there and see for yourself and see what I mean about Turkish girls.

  14. to Former Turk Lover’,
    Sorry but i really wondered how many Turkish people have u ever met? I think you are very unlucky because u met that kind of Turkish girls and people. But I have to explain something with using your weird, accusing, grim post.

    # Don’t forget you can also meet lots of girls who have the same behavior like Turkish girls all around the world.

    # It is not true that, Turkish are suspicious of anything non-Turkish. Conversely they are suspicious about the Turkish. That s why all the Turkish people are more carefully about them. Turkish just wanna know that if they are sincere or not about their friendship but first you have to make Turkish trust.

    # Marriage is the ultimate goal in life for not only just Turkish women also it is for lots of women too and I think u wanted to say housewife not housekeeper. Being a housewife is not just belong to Turkish culture. You cant generalize it for every Turkish women and if you wanna know why the percentage of working women is so low because in Turkey, there is a big economic crisis and unemployment problem. If you ask the Turkish women, I m sure that most of the Turkish women will say you, I would not want to be a housewife if there were a chance to work.

    # Lying is one of the most common behavior of humankind. You know what, everybody lies. Can you say I have never lied? I don’t know which country you are from but I m sure that I can find lots of men who complain about women`s lie. Lets say so far you have met at least 100 Turkish girls,OK? Even if you have met more than 1000 Turkish girls, you cant generalize Turkish female culture like `Lying is a CENTRAL part of Turkish female culture`(I copied it from your first post and it obviously shows us the generalization). I think you didn’t aware of what you wrote. You accused the Turkish people by racialism. You cant blame the country by racialism only you met bad Turkish people and had bad experience with them.

    #You must be sociologist because your comments are like from your own academic article. Sorry but how many year did you live with them and observe Turkish people`s behaviors? You said `from my experience` but still continue to generalize all Turkish people.

    # If you are living in another country, it is normal that hanging out with your people. I have lived in a hostel for 8 months and all Spanish were with Spanish, all French were with French, all Asians were with Asian so it is normal. Do you have any idea about human psychology? !!` % 90 of them don’t have a single English friend`, c`mon it is just your exaggeration!! Turkish people aren’t the only one who whine about how cold English people are. Just google it! You will find lots of people who whine about it.

    # They don’t mention the Armenian Genocide because it is not exist and here is not the place for negotiate it. Also topic is Turkish girls, how u associate both of them? These are so harmonize! , aren’t they?

    Girls are girls everywhere doesn’t matter which country they are from. Most of the behaviors are same in all countries. Every race has different type of beauty. If you like brunette hair with olive complexion skin, Turkish girls are the best for you. They like dressing up, beauty stuff such as make up facials also most of them cook well and they like family life but everything is not that perfect generally they are jealous, they can gain weight easily, they like watching TV a lot and most of them want to live luxury life like lots of other women (I think it is one of the rules of being a woman). Just you should know that most of them are Muslim and you can have some big problems about differences of religions.
    By the way, I am one of them and also I like to speak about how great my country is and Ataturk, like every citizen who likes his/her country and country`s leader.

  15. “Turkey is the poor-man of Europe and many would love to escape poverty, even if it means marrying a western guy.”

    Turkey is economically actually richer than Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Kosovo, and Moldova. GDP per capita index, Turkey is richer than each one.

    The poorest country in Europe is Moldova.

    1. Spatula,first of all,I don’t like to call myself as an European. Because our origin from Asia and I proud of it.

      At the moment all europe countries and plus USA people have problem about money. My boyfriend is having really hard time to raise his 2 children, who lives in UK.Last week their fridge was empty:(

      We are lucky, because we have strong bonds in the family and we help each other in my country. İf i call for Help people would be in the queue front of my door.

      But I don’t see this bounds exist in Europe or USA. We are Muslim, the Koran says, if you are neighbor is starving and u are full it is a sin. You should share your food.

      If you met with bad people,who cheated you,fooled you,I am really sorry for that. But you should choose you are friends carefully. Bad people are everywhere. You can not blame the whole country and over than 70 million people.

  16. To Little Puppy:

    It is clear from your post Mr. / Mrs. Puppy that you are Turkish from the moment you denied the Armenian Genocide. According to the United Nations definition the final aspect of a genocide is its’ denial – and of course Turkish people are indoctrinated from a young age to believe the myth of Ataturk Nationalism (Kemalist indoctrination) which is inextricably tied to Article 301 (‘Insulting Ataturk’, punishable by up to 3 years in gaol) which is tied to the ‘massacres’ (admitted to by Enver Pasha in the early 1920s) of Armenians at a time when the word ‘genocide’ did not even exist. Hence, acceptance of the term ‘genocide’ is, in Turkey, an insult to Ataturk (who fought for Turkish independence against the ‘evil backstabbing Armenians at a time when Turkey was most vulnerable just after the Gallipoli (Gelibolu) battles).

    Don’t even get me started on Gallipoli – in Turkey schoolkids are taught that Turkey won World War 1 and World War 1 was just the event of Gallipoli in 1915 without placing it in the context of World War 1 from 1914 to 1918 – Turkey and Germany were allies and Germany surrendered, this is partly why the Ottoman Empire declined and Britain, France and Italy entered into the Middle East and was why Turkey faught its’ war of Independence in the early 1920s. Had they not have lost World War 1 then there would have been no war of independence.

    You are right Mr. / Mrs. Puppy, I was very unfortunate to have met so many low quality Turks although when you ask how many I have met I would say close to 150, hence being able to make an informed judgement on theexperiences I have had not just with them but from experiencing Turkish culture first hand – something that I must say, the majority of the Turks I have met have not done, because had I not have met them they would not have had contact with anyone English before – and they were surprised to see that I really wasn’t a cold evil capitalist western pawn of devil imperialism as they told me they were indoctrinated to believe through their socialisation process!.

    As for the period of time I knew them…2003 until the present day, although I eradicated the majority of them in 2008 after my last visit to Turkey due to the disgraceful manner by which they treated me. I would suggest that the period 2003 until the current day is long enough a period by which to form a well constructed fact based judgement.

    I am fully aware that people lie, but from ‘my exprience’ the sheer volume and ordacity of lies I experienced (such as lying about having cancer in order to prevent having to come and meet me in Taksim because she was too much of a coward to be adult enough and say “look, I don’t want to meet you”) and pretending to be on a university excursion instead of a holiday to avoid helping me find a room in a hotel are lies that I doubt many people would find ‘acceptable’.

    Turkish people are suspicious of anything non-Turkish, there is no denying it – I am merely repeating what I have been told by Turkish people. Youare correct though in saying they are also suspicious of things Turkish as well – so this draws a conclusion that Turkish people areextremely suspicious – and that I am afraid is not a desirable character trait because suspicion leads to accusation and in Turkey accusation equals guilt, and that I am also afraid is an indicator of social and cultural backwardness.

    You say that “you have to make Turkish trust”, well this is the same the world over. From my experience, in Turkey there were those who were standoffish (the ones who didn’t want anything to do with me other than wanting my imperialist money or treat me as a family bargaining tool to improve their family status) and there were the ones who seemed really friendly and interested to meet the ‘new token Westerner’…which quickly changed when they realised I had nothing to offer them and they switched off like a lightswitch and refused to even get eye contact with me. Fickle.

    As for the housewife comments: I have some Turkish chums here in London studying Masters degrees. When they finish they want to go back to Turkey and become housewives. I have Turkish friends in Ankara, Istanbul, Izmir, Safranbolu, Eskisehir etc who all have degrees, masters degrees, PhDs and their ultimate objective is not work, but to become housewives. Most have a choice, all choose marriage and to become a housewife over a career. I have Turkish female friends who say “I want to get married”, but they don’t specifiy to whom – which says to me that they just want the lifestyle and they are not doing it for love, just ‘lifestyle’. That speaks volumes about socio-cultural expectation and ambition.

    I’m afraid that if you acceptthat people lie and it is a ‘normal’ aspct of life then I deeply truly pity you. In my culture lying and deception are extremely bad things because not only does it speak volumes about the upbringing of the liar but also about theirfamily, educational environment and friendship curcle. If you accept that as ‘normal’ then again that is an indicator of the standards to live by andwhich areessentially the crux of the points I am making. Low standards = low standards, hence the poor treatment of me and my subsequent extremely low opinion of the abovementioned.

    Yes I am an academic, so I am not going to dumb things down to make it popularist and therefore acceptable to everyone for fear of posibly, maybe upsetting someone. The facts of my experiences are sheer and brutal facts, there is no denying them. It’s not as if I am making it all up and I never had these ‘friends’ of never went to Turkey on 2 occasions. These facts are real and my experiences were real. Sure I cannot generalise, but ‘from my vast experience’ the undercurrents were and are there to be seen and I am merely expressing them.

    As for your comment about ‘if you are a foreigner in another country it is ‘normal’ to mix with people from your own country’. Actually, again you are incorrect. Ask yourself this contextual question: “why are you in that foreign country in the first place”? I lived in Australia – did not mix with English because the purpose of my being there was to experience another culture for my own self development and to broaden my horizons. If I went there and mixed with English people I just may have well stayed back in England. When I was in Turkey i mixed with only Turks, no English and I asked people notto speak English to me…

    …There is a certain element of British society that goes overseas to foreign countries and doesn’t mix with local people – those people, to people with my education and upbringing, are considered to be very low class, almost football hooligan types. Perhaps your experiences come as the contemporary equivalent of this social class in Turkey as in England?

    …so, what is ‘normal’ for you is actually extremely embarrassing for us, me especially, because it shows a huge degree of social ineptitude, fear, lack of confidence and small mindedness, but then again, if this is normal for you then it represents your valueswhich I havebeen saying all along are, as a Turk, lower than those of us with an education and upbringing based on integrity, honesty, virtue, trust, knowledge, logic and development.

    Ok I will ‘google’ “cold English people” because whatever it says on the internet MUST be true – no need to find out for yourself about English people, as I have done with Turkish people. Have you been to England or met English people Mr. / Mrs. Puppy?

    You like to speak about how great Turkey is and Ataturk – well so far you haven’t done anything to convince me that Turkey is great, nor Ataturk, nor Turkish girls again.

    One last thing, as evidence to justify my argument about Turkish, and therefore Turkish female logic and interpretation, at the Anit Kabir (the national mauseleum of Ataturk in Ankara) in 2006 there was a painting in the Gallipoli (Gelibolu) section ofthe museum depicting ‘evil’ Australian ANZAC soldiers at Gallipoli bayoneting babies and women on the tops of the cliffs on the battlefield. Why would there be newborn babies (naked) on a battlefield that has no buildings? Why were women there? The cliffs were too ricky and steep for agriculture – propaganda against theevil ANZACs to backup the propaganda regarding ‘winning’ world war 1? When I questioned this, a Turkish woman standing near to me when I was questioning the painting with my two friends Canan and Derya spat in my face and told me not to question Ataturk!

  17. Spatula, are you by any chance Turkish?

  18. Wow what an interesting read,
    I have been married to a Turkish girl for 8 years and have lived in Istanbul, Toronto, Frankfurt and my birthplace in Melbourne.
    There is a thin thread of truth in “Former Turk Lover” comment but that said I think it speaks more of his naivety and character. Sorry but you have been equally direct.
    Turkey has tunnel vision on a number of issues as do all mono-cultures but over a 10 year period I have seen this evolve. Biggest of them is the inability to be objective however many aspects of the culture are simple wonderful.
    On another note, I have had some hairy experiences in many places in North England ie Hull.

  19. To David Vincent:

    I also lived in Australia, Portugal and France and have never been treated as I have been treated in Turkey. As for my ‘naivity’ I’m afraid that is the incorrect word because had I have been naive I would not have given those people who treated me so exceedingly poorly an opportunity to prove my value judgement of them incorrect. As for my ‘character’ – doesn’t it say a lot about my character when I make a promise in 2003 and keep it and go all the way to Turkey in 2008 to honour my promise?

    When commenting on my ‘factual’ experiences the least you could do to further the discussion is to mention a few technical details instead of merely attacking the personality as you say ‘with no objectivity’, which I agree with you in a strong undercurrent in Turkish society. But to refer my experiences as being naive and representative of my [poor] character when I have provided many examples of my polite, honourable, integral, just and responsible character is mere fantasy.

    If you honestly believe that promises are meant to be broken because it is the way the modern world works then again, I pity that attitude and I am not going to adjust my very good upbringing and education to fit in with a bourgeoning underclass of plebian and ruffian behaviour where promises and deep discussion has less value than the handkerchief and where friendships and relationships are as shallow and transient as the latest fashion in Christmas music number 1s.

    I too have had bad experiences in England, in fact ‘most’ of my bad experiences have been here because I have lived here most of my life. I have also had bad experiences in Germany, France, Portugal, Spain, and in Perth in Australia. Having said that, the treatment I was subject to in Turkey – after having been polite and honourable and civilised and not having done anything to justify that behaviour – is a totally different kettle of fish compared to being put in bad situations in England for ‘trespassing on the wrong gang turf’.

    In all honesty, if you go to Hull you’re asking for trouble. If I go to Turkey people could say the same – but at least when I went to Turkey I went to visit friends and was treated more politely and courteously by strangers!

  20. Dearest Surfers I came across your debate and thank you all for givng me a smile..the rejected and deserted Former lover are yu sure you and the admin arent the same person…lol Spatula and why r u tearin yourself out ? A rejected and dumped guy will of course be sour . He says so many years ago yethe still cansit and write about this like yesterday, still alone ?

    Hey guys life is shrt people are the same all around the world dont be so prejudiced dont try to raise issues.. relax

  21. I think that Turkish girls are unique and very polite girls, charming and nice.
    Well, at lest that is what i think , I had only one experience with my ex-turkish Girlfriend , who broke my heart badly, she left me because she was thinking that we can’t match because of our culture, I am 29 old years a middle eastern guy and she is 27, everything between us was totally fine , and we were going to get married this summer! but unfortunately everything stopped suddenly…. I think our cultures are pretty the same , and we don’t have a big differences. I have been to turkey couple of times that’s why I am saying that. anyways.

    Now my question is , do you really guys think that this relationship is wrong from the beggining? knowing that we had the same culture for 600 years , plus same religion , life style ..etc ..

  22. Spinning Wheel:

    Perhaps you cannot articulate yourself in any other way than to deny the mistreatment of me at the hands of the aforementioned Turkish people and rather project your own negativity onto me – you suggest I am ‘still’ single, yet for all you know I could have been happily married since 1998!

    Are you 100% certain that I was rejected and deserted? Perhaps you should re-read what has been written and re-analyze because what I have written hac clearly been misinterpreted by you.

    Airmax 1111:

    The classic and hackneyed cliche of “our cultures are too different”, spoken by a Turkish female, can be read as ‘I [the Turkish female] am too ignorant and inflexible to adapt to any other method of living, method of thinking, method of outlook (etc) to be able to sustain / mainatain a relationship outside of the comfort zone built for me by the Turkish indoctrination system’.

    Knowing Turkish girls, basically she found someone who adheres to her comfort zoned view of life (specifically someone who will treat her in accordance with the Turkish patriarchial society and will essentially use her as a ‘kept’ woman’) and so she would rather try to foil and deceive you by saying that your cultures are too different instead of saying “I have found someone Turkish”.

    The question is now: Why would you want to be with someone like that?

    I knew a Turkish girl, her initials are BT, a close friend of DT, she met an English guy on a dating website in about 2004 and they were engaged to marry from 2006 until 2007. He was a welder, and she a high flying economics graduate – not a socially ideal match you may think. Anyway, they constantly argued even to the extent where they almost broke up over an accidental blank e-mail I accidentally sent to BT. As it happened, due to her and her friend (DT) acting like children (constantly ‘not talking to such and such anymore EVER…until the day after!) BT and her English fiancee broke up. Literally within days BT had met a Dutch ‘businessman’ and within a week she had got engaged to him. They are now married and living in Holland – she does not work…

    …Her friend, DT, who had English male interests via the internet, suddenly broke off all contact with all English people (including me), and instead adopted a hate approach where any English person got the full on nasty treatment of swearing, accusation and so on. It turns out that the entire friendship group of young impressionable Turkish girls all dumped their English boyfriends and fiancees because the group leader had broken up with hers. All the girls in that group now have Dutch boyfriends!

  23. Wow interesting reading
    I have lived in Turkey now for one year a fantastic place called Altinkum, I have a beautiful Turkish Girlfriend not once has she tried to scam me not once has she asked me for anything. It is the men not the women that are the scammers.

  24. Hi Blake,

    Thanks for your input. I have heard of Altinkum. I was in Izmir for a few days and planned on seeing Ephesus (Efes). Many of the people I spoke to in Izmir said that due to the nature of the western tourist area of Turkey the Turks there are more liberal as they are regularly exposed to people of other cultures (ie the tourists) and are thus more flexible. My experiences though were predominatly in and around Ankara which I can say is not a great place.

    As you have read, my experience of Turkish females is that they are very much untrustworthy although I also met Turkish guys who were also less than trustworthy – most notably the bouncer at the nightclub ‘Brothers’ in Ankara who tried to steal my wallet and sunglasses by suggesting they were ‘security threats’ and the student at Bilkent University who tried to get me to leave his 4X4 (my friend (who was female) and I were friends with this guy’s girlfriend) so that as I had the door open he tried to drive off at high speed. Not to mention Hasan who within 10 minutes of arriving at Esenboga in 2006 managed to pickpocket £50 from me plus my aftershave and almost my phone!

    I would like to see the west coast of Turkey more, especially in summer (as opposed to Ankara in winter) although in all fairness, it would be a very naive person indeed to allow himself to be exposed to Turkey again after my past experiences.

  25. Hi Former Turk lover,
    I think your aim is not to talk about Turkish girls.. you just collected all negative information about Turkey and googled ‘Turkish’ , started to talk about girls and then showed your real face by writing about all country…

    I just wonder who fasten you with a turkish girl 6 years???

    And you say there is a biggest sequrity problem in that country.Can you feel yourself totaly relaxed at anyplace?

    As I know,last year 24m people visited Turkey and at least half of them visited Istanbul.According to a last month thomas cook survey. %83 of them think to come back, %16 say that they didnt find good service and %1 culture problem. so Where is the sequrity problem????

    Frankly, I can say that even in a worst distinct of Istanbul or Ankara you can walk with your family until morning while even western countries people are nervous to walk after 7 pm. Meanwhile if you learn about other Anatolian places, people could invite you into their houses as guests then you can stay and eat without giving any money.

    If you want to ask me my experince
    I spent 27 years in Istanbul and I went to several countries as well, personally I can say that girls look like different in each country but they have same behaviours such as jealous.

  26. Petaliza:

    Actually if you care to read my posts you will see that I didn’t in fact just “google” ‘Turkish’ after collecting negative information about Turkey. Surely your reading and comprehension is better than that! Have another read and then reconsider what you said. The things I have said are all true events experienced at first hand and as I stated “I gave those people the opportunity to prove my projected value judgements of them incorrect but they merely proved me correct!”

    I’m not sure what you mean ‘fasten’ me with a Turkish girl for 6 years. Perhaps you misunderstood. I made a friend who was Turkish in 2003 in England and I tried my best to stay friends with her despite her bad behaviour of being selfish, a liar etc. I kept my promise, twice, to visit her and my other Turkish friends who I became friends with on my first visit. Now do you understand?

    What exactly is this “biggest security problem” that I meantion? Please can you elaborate on this. I think that by saying “all places are unsafe” is rather an all encompassing cop out answer to a serious issue. I for one believe in first impressions and within 10 minutes of landing at Esenboga airport I was the victim of crime. Sure I have been the victim of crime in other countries, but not within 10 minutes of landing! Nor have people tried to throw me out of a moving vehicle before, nor have nightclub bouncers tried to steal my possessions, nor have I been attacked by a gang of kids who threaten to bash my skull in for the equivalent of 20 pence in a nice area of town, or threatened with a knife [shall I continue], all within a period of 12 days!

    I’m afraid that if you try quoting statistics to me I will tear your argument apart. You say 24,000,000 visited Turkey in 2009, ok great, I have no way of varifying this, but what contextual value does this number have – if that many visit a country that says nothing of ‘security’ as security and visitor numbers are not directly linked because the majority of visitors go to the west of Turkey and the majority of serious crime occurs in the east…the variables are too great to come to that simple a conclusion! You say that 83% ‘think’ of coming back…but again, a thought process cannot be accurately linked to the ‘actual’ security environment – it is an intangible variable. If 83% think about returning, of that 83% what figure ‘actually’ returns? You need this ‘actual’ returnee number to be able to justify your argument. Also, ‘good service’ does not relate to ‘security’, it relates to ‘service’. The 1% who said there was a cultural problem, is that 1% of the 24,000,000 or 1% of the 83% or 1% of the 16%? Also, of that 1%, how many of them were independent travelers? What percentage stayed in hotels, with Turkish friends, host families, what was the length of their stay…there are so many variables that to attempt to come to that simple a conclusion about how they indicate a ‘good’ security environment poses more questions than it solves!

    Are you honestly also telling me that in Ulus in Ankara (where my former friend ‘DT’ was attacked and molested while visiting the castle there) is safer than ‘anywhere’ in England? I’m afraid that you are totally wrong. Even my remaining Turkish friends in Ankara, Istanbul, even the ones living down the street from me say that Ulus is a very dangerous place. I visited there alone in 2008 to visit the Roman baths and on my way back to Kavaklidere my camera was almost stolen from my backpack and I caught a pickpocket trying to steal my friends’ housekeys!

    Are you also telling me than in the sidestreets of Istiklal Cadessi it is ‘safe’? Perhaps you forgot about the bombing of the British Embassy just off Istiklal, or perhaps the murder of Hrant Dink in Sisli? Even people in Istanbul say not to venture into Istiklal in the evening due to the pickpockets, heroin addicts etc.

    I’m interested to find out what western countries you have been to where you are scared to be out after 7pm? Inform us please.

    I know about the other Anatolian places – on my travels into Kappadocia (awful spelling) I was met with both friendly and unfriendly people but was never invited into people’s homes. In Safranbolu I was met by VERY friendly people, in fact the friendliest I met in Turkey; they loved me so much they said they wanted to look after my money for me because was an American! (I’m English!).

    Can I ask you, what countries have you been to, what is your nationality and with whom did you travel? I personally travel alone as I feel that is the most effective way to meet people without people of my own nationality polluting my opinions and openmindedness. I also travel to places ‘off season’ because that way I avoid the usual tourist trap incidents and I meet people when they are at their most normal.

  27. Wow wow wow, I am so surprised at the comments by Former Turk Lover! Well, I am a Turkish girl and I dated a non-Turkish person before. I can tell you this: my ex bf never experienced any of the things you say!! I know many Turkish women who dating non-Turkish guys and NONE of them ever aimed to get the guy`s money or anything. I am sorry for your bad experience and I know you will not believe me but the MAJORITY of the Turkish women would put in a lot of effort to maintain a healthy relationship with their bfs.. There is one point that I unfortunately accept: most Turkish women think that they will not be able to find any men when they reach 30 so they try so hard to keep men in the relationship..But again, as a person studying in the US I can say that nearly all my American friends are so dying to find a `suitable` husband before they are 35. so..
    Apart from this, I think you made friends with really dumb people, Turkish or not. I would not be friends with anyone who answers `dont question Ataturk` while I was trying to understand the reasoning behind the actions!!

    1. Very good comment about Turkish girls. I think most women from Turkey are pretty moral have a low divorce and are usualy very educated, just looking for a husband, which is normal.

  28. hello everyone ,

    First of all ,I would like thank Former Turk lover so much for writing..I totally agree with you in some points , but we can’t ignore the facts that our cultures are really close, I mean the Arabian and the Turkish cultures no matter what some people try to ignore or change , because there are some facts in life can’t be changed by anyone .

    the situation might be different for western people , for many reasons , like religion , history and life style.. etc knowing that Turkish girls prefere a western guy .. and this is a fact too ..

    however , we have to admit that any relationship built on 4 bases : Love , Trust , respect , and understanding , and if these factors were complete , i think anything else could be resolved by time..

    Thank you once again and have a great day ..


  29. hello everyone

    I think Turkish girls are so nice but they have messed up mentality , unfortunately 🙁

  30. Hi! we are a couple of Turkish girls and read your interpretations and almost all of them are wrong. ı think most of you don’t research. Turkish girls are very messy, beautiful, respectful, intelligent, different, hard etc. I should also add Turkey is the most beautiful country in the world. In my opinion you should see this country, and if you have seen it please come again.

    1. How are our interpretations specifically wrong? I have spent some time in Turkey and this is the way I see it. I do think Turkish girls are beautiful and intelligent and the country is exotic and worth a trip. However, please be more specific instead of just saying Turkish girls are great.

  31. Busra and Fatmanur do an incredible job at confirming almost everything I have said.

    Not only do they say that “I don’t think you do your research” (despite me saying many times that my research regarding this subject is based on 2 visits to Turkey and 6 years of knowing Turkish people) but they also absolutely confirm what I have said about the Turkish indoctrination that “Turkey is the greatest place on Earth” (despite ‘probably’ never having been anywhere else on the planet before).

    Again, the subjectivity of Turkish people, especially the females, is exemplified by what the two girls say. Fundamentally, to counter our argument they say:

    – You’re wrong
    – Turkish girls are great
    – Turkey is the greatest
    – Come here

    Well, WHY are our interpretations ‘wrong’? Explain please.

    WHY are Turkish girls all the things you say they are?

    WHY is Turkey so great?

    WHY should I go back there after everything I have experienced?

    It’s the classic situation: The only argument posed by Turks against objective criticism is to revert back to the indoctrination provided by their schooling and revert to subjective opinion that in no way addresses the key issues. Perhaps this is why Turkish girls aren’t so great!

  32. So:

    “Hi! we are a couple of Turkish girls and read your interpretations and almost all of them are wrong [WHY?]. ı think most of you don’t research [WHY?]. Turkish girls are very messy [WHY? (subjective)], beautiful [WHY? (subjective)], respectful [HOW and WHY?], intelligent [not by the things I have posted], different [EXPLAIN WHY], hard [WHY?]etc. I should also add Turkey is the most beautiful country in the world [is it? Where else have you been?]. In my opinion you should see this country [WHY? – as opposed to where else?], and if you have seen it please come again [for what reason?].

    Busra and Fatmanur – in Western culture we are taught to ask the question ‘WHY’ because by doing so we can look at things objectively. In Turkey you are not taught to ask ‘WHY’, rather you are indoctrinated to repeat without thinking and without questioning (the concept of Kemalism and Turkish Nationalism). Perhaps if you raised your game, did justice to thousands of years of human civilisation and thought process development and forward thinking you will then be in a position to debate this and similar issues as an equal partner in dabate situations. At the moment, just repeating what you have been told to say aged 6 at school and never having been in a position out of the Turkish Nationalistic and Kemalist comfort zone you do not hold any credibility in your argument as it is purely subjective which makes us in the West see that what you are saying is essentially incorrct and what we (specifically myself) say as being more credible.

    You need to provide the reasons behind your comments and ask ‘why’ if you want to be an equal partner in this debate.

    1. Very reply on Turkish girls. It mildly irritates me when people just talk without backing it up with specifics and not asking questions and thinking outside of the box.

  33. Former Turk Lover,

    Having traveled nearly every country on the globe, I found the Turks to be very trust worthy and to be some of the best friends you could ever ask for.

    I lived in Turkey in the early 80’s, was there through the military take over and marshal law, and felt bad for the conditions they had to endure. Water and electric limitations, but still carrying on as if there weren’t any problems.

    The people are resilient and I would trust the ones I knew with my life, and on many occasions did. I was there when the terrorism was very bad, people were being shot every day before the take over, but even that didn’t help end it immediately. My friends father owned 5 restaurants and received letters threatening to blow up one of the restaurants if my friend didn’t break ties with me and my family, but his dad told him not to change a thing. He called me his second son. Well the restaurant was destroyed, but it didn’t change a thing, he still treated me like family. You have to respect someone like that.

    I think you must have met some pathetic people and feel bad that you didn’t meet some of the real Turks.

  34. I agree, I did meet some pathetic people – in fact the vast majority were as you describe them. I also agree that I didn’t meet many nice ones, but hey – I tried, twice!

  35. First thing,I do not mean to talk about armenian genocide,economics or politics as a physics student at university.I would like to but may be it is not the best article and best place to discuss about it.
    I am a girl from Turkey,I have to point this out,I don’t like Meditarrenean men so usually made my choises on northern europeans as boyfriends.That’s how I like to…As I’m an atheist,religion stuff didn’t cause any problem.
    I always critize my country about many things but this is not what I mean to mention.You cannot blame me for anything others did to you because I am turkish.I love people doesn’t matter where s/he is from and take a chance to know them without prejudices…

  36. Deniz – agreed, we ‘should’ all treat people with prijudices and without projected judgement. But surely what I have said, about me going ‘back’ to Turkey to provide those Turkish people with the opportunity to prove my hypotheses incorrect (as it would have been incorrect for me to have placed my western value judgements onto them), then surely what I was doing was giving them an opportunity, not placing any prejudice onto them and therefore treating them in a way that they would never even consider treating me (ie with fairness).

    I’m afraid that any discussion about Turkish subjectivity cannot be complete without discussion of the cult of Kemalism as well as your shared responsibility of the Armenian Genocide…any discussion that brushes over them is merely an insult to the intelligence of people who place objectivity of thought over subjectivity.

  37. First of all,I’d like apologize for my poor english.I will try to express myself as possible as I can.

    Agreed about turkish people,I mean most of them cannot be complete without the discussion of not only cult of Kemalism,it is all the subjects that we have fix-ideas and having dogmatic sight on.This is a problem of whole society,starting through the most educated to less ecucated one and should be considered as a problem of education system.
    Since we are seven years old,this is the age we start to have elementary education,we are raised and educated by the cult of Kemalism…How great he was,how he did good things,revolutions…as if he cut off all problems that the society had during the period of Ottoman Empire and ignoring the problems it brought to society which still suffers adopting the new system and democracy.Turkish revolution was not a one based on society,it was just made one a group of people who are considered to be “literate” or “well-educated”.
    In physics,we have a term called “inertia”.Each object has a resistance to a change in its state of motion.People and any community which consists of people,has an inertia to not to change their during positions…People need time to change themselves and adopt the new system.Turkish people did not have this time period,it happened just in a few years,they were not ready for this.As a result of this,the inavoidable result as seen.
    Kemalism cult,is just a a self-protection of a system which society cannot adopt,it is just a way for adoption.And now,”Kemalism” and “religion” are just toys of politicians whom uses those for their own benefits and also to be elected.
    In my opinion,this is a problem of education and education of mind is not something given at schools or universities.Most of turks cannot stand the ideas opponent to theirs or their nations…People of my nation does not know to respect other’s ideas or make discussions objectivily.Not just to foreigners,even to their own people.I think it needs “time” more “time” for turkish people to have developed and devoloping minds.I don’t mean to say “mine is best,I am great”.But we can
    enlarge our aspects and point of views reading others,listening to others and critize ourselves,our thoughts,we should be open to everyone.
    As I read Nietzsche,it doesn’t mean I have to put his ideas into my brain and go on my life like this.It makes no difference,by concentrating on a religion or cult which is called “dogmatism”But he may make us think about the things we never did before.This is “evolution of mind”
    Armenian Genocide subject is a very complicated one.As I am not expert of this subject to discuss about,I prefer to not to talk about it.What I observed since today,what I say or what I am trying to talk about doesn’t make sense for others.It is worst to be not understood in any kind of relation.

  38. Second thing,I want to talk about is what you wrote above about turkish girls who want to have european man to marry as Turkey is poor son of Europe.May be this can be true for some people and sorry you had bad experiences with some turkish girls.
    There are many russians coming and going to Turkey and also from other countries which are considered to be “poor” as a result of system change.They want to marry turkish men or they prefer to be prostitutes here.I really feel sorry for those women,it is no good to blame them blindly.Each person has a different story which are regarded to be alike.
    I had a french boyfriend for four years,was deeply in love with him.One day,he asked me to marry him and move to France with him,I couldn’t.Couldn’t leave everything here undone,my education or other things I go on and I am not ready for marriage,never thought of moving another country.
    Why him?Why I couldn’t pick a man up from my own culture?Because,instead of turkish men do,he treat me as an human-being more than a woman,he respected my opinions more than my appearance…and so on.
    It can be nothing about wearing a shirt which costs 120 instead of 40.Should I sell myself for those?Does it make me a different person?

  39. It is very rare for me, to post a comment in a discussion like this. I have to admit that I found it interesting enough, to read it completely from top to bottom. To qualify my hightened interest, I should mention that my current girlfriend is turkish. We have been together now for well over a year, therefore rest assured, that I am not blinded by love anymore. Furthermore it might be of interest, that I was born in a western European country, lived on two continents for extended periods of time, and have seen many countries in my travels. Sorry to be so diffuse, but let’s not get more nationalities involved. It would only confuse the real issues.

    As I see it, there is of course a grain of truth in many of the arguments. There can be no doubt for instance, that Turkey indoctrinates their young, that it would rather forget certain historic events, or that many highly educated turkish women end up staying at home, instead of continuing in their careers. These are historical, independently documented facts, or as in the last case can be statistically proven. They do however not automatically lead to the categorical assumption, that turkish women are habitual liars, or other such conclusions, as those are simply based on personal observation and no scientific prove can be made to back up such statements. Someone who forcefully insists on letting everyone know about their academic background should know that.

    At this point I would like to mention my own experience with Turks living in Turkey, as well as some I have met abroad. The vast majority can only be described as uncommonly polite, friendly, generous to a fault, and quite well educated and informed about Turkey, as well as the rest of the world. I said ealier I didn’t want to mention any more nationalities, but at the risk of starting a new debate, I would only wish, the average US American I met, would be half as knowledgable and able to discriminate fact from fiction, as the average Turk I know, is able to. I also don’t think it is a fault to think ones’ own country is the most beautiful in the world. I have met many people from diverse nationalities who have traveled all over the world, who think likewise about their own country, or the place they chose to live. Beauty lies of course in the eye of the beholder. Nevertheless I do agree, that it seems foolish to make such a statement, if you’ve never been anywhere else. But there are many foolish people living in the world, not just in Turkey. There are a number of additional comments I could make, but they would just be iterations of what I just said.

    In conclusion I would like those who had a negative experience with some turkish people, to consider if maybe they themselves could have been the cause for their negative experiences. Selfexamination is of course hard, and to some degree impossible. But in contemplating some of the above comments, I couldn’t help thinking, that as honourable, generous and dependable a certain poster characterizes himself, my perception of him after reading all his posts, can better be decribed as haughty, sometimes agressive, and academic background notwithstanding, slightly ignorant. The last could of course be due to trying to manipulate the opinion of the readers. I don’t want to be harsh. Still the impression remains, that one is usually treated according to ones’ own behaviour, and it seems no surprise to read what happened in this case.

  40. It is pathetic though to speak behind the back of an entire nation merely depending on your own experiences, or imagination. This is way too subjective in my opinion. I see no sense in relating the misbehavior of two “liar” Turkish girls to the entire historical context and existence of a nation, from their past to their present. I feel upset as a “Turkish girl”, if you say so, after reading these, because I honestly did not know I was so mean, and the people I met from all across the world, from Europeans to Africans, never told me I was so! Being “hoenstly human” must be something beyond gender or nationality. And 150 Turkish acquiantances is surely not enough, you should meet and live with MOST OF Turkish people in order to generalize.

    Turkey is not a poor country, people are not thieves or beggars; Turkey is a country of class society, and that is where the actual problem lies and the rest is the social outcome of that.

    And why do I have to defend my people, I really do not know, but surely I felt offended because of such generalization. By the way, Turkish democracy and history is something Turkish people must discuss first, that’s not a lesson to be taught by other nations, considering that our culture is unique and complex and any European or US democratic solution formula would not practically work out fully in Turkey and I can assure you there are quite nice debates and questionings about that within the country. I am quite optimistic about what we are about to become, neither European (or, rich, as you say) nor Asian, that is what makes Turkey unique.

    And I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to Armenians or what the Kemalism orders, life is much more different here in practice than your theories, dear Former Turkish Lover, although I doubt you every loved any Turk.

  41. By the way, I never heard or seen any Turkish person living in today’s Turkey spit at anyone’s face as a sign of anger, that does not sound Turkish! They could as well be joking or you might have hung out with some crazy people!

    1. I have never heard of people doing that in Turkey either.

      1. I also will go back and review a few of my post to make sure that they are not negative. It is not meant to be negative at all. Just some of my personal experiences. However, if they are viewed as a wrong generalization I will check it for sure. Turkish culture is very interesting.

  42. Turkey is a country which changes in culture from region to region, but certain values are the same. Marriage is an important social issue, being a good mother and wife is important in Turkish culture. What Turks believe creating a healthy society is in the hands of mothers.
    I am a Turkish girl myself, university graduate. (To your interest, British culture and literature) and working at a sector which requires a lot of travelling (Well, I mean A LOT! Can you guess which sector it is?) I have visited many countries in Europe, Asia, a few in Africa and been to Canada and America. Women are women everywhere. But in Turkish society:
    – Turkish women, no matter how much education they get want to get married and have children. The ones ask for the opposite from life are creating the very slight layer of the Turkish society.
    – Financial security is important for Turkish women. A lot of them dislike macho men, on the other hand they want their men to be strong figures (not only physically). Turkish women are generally submissive, possessive and jealous when they love.

    – It is a courtesy in Turkish culture that men pay when there is a meeting. That is not because Turkish women don’t make any money or do not work but it is a cultural thing. It is a proof of how gentleman the guy is.

    – Lying is not a part of the culture. As much common as in every culture I would say. I saw the worse in some countries, trust me 🙂

    – Turkish girls are Mediterrenean. They are hot-blooded.

    Go for a Turkish girl if you are open for Turkish culture and Islam. Most Turkish women wouldn’t ask you to become a Muslim or get circumcised (new generation is not really conservative anyway yet certain values are still there and people are not willing to break them for the sake of love because even love fades -unfortunately- but certain values remain until the end of one’s life) but their family would. There is a great respect for the opinion of the family in Turkish culture as a son or daughter. It will not be only enough if a Turkish girl loves you but you should gain the hearts of the family members if you want a happy relationship / marriage. In Turkish culture it is not regarded as a lack of independency but as a part of respect for the family and elder people’s opinions. So if you are ready to handle these, give it a try. If not, don’t try hard to dislike Turkish girls. The cards are generally open. Good luck!

    1. Thanks for the very balanced view. I would agree that Turkish girls are very open t new ideas and cultures and warm and friendly. The ones I have known are Doctors or very educated. The key thing with Turkey is it is a culture that is in between Europe Muslim. I think it was much more traditional but now is becoming something totally different.
      By the way, I think Turkey should eliminate the tourist visa fee, I think more people would go. Its a great place for vacation.

  43. Just to reiterate some points:

    My ‘experiences’ are not ‘theories’, because a theory is something that has not ‘yet’ been put into practice. As I have consistently said I have been to Turkey twice and had Turkish friends since 2003 and still have some Turkish friends who i often speak
    with about Turkey, Turkish culture and Yurkish politics and history.

    You cannot deny a person’s experiences. All of the experiences I have written about in my posts are all true, in fact many of them can be verified by the TURKISH people who were with me during the events – although I mam not going to post their e-mail addresses and mobile phone numbers for anyone to contact them directly as there are legal ramifications surrounding that.

    I do not believe my behavior resulted in people treating me poorly. I do agree though that some people can behave in such a way as to leave them in positions and situations that leave them wide open to be exploited and manipulated. I know this because in my teenage years I was one of these people and therefore I was VERY aware of not allowing myself to put myself into these same positions later on in life. So, the assertion that the extremely poor behavior aimed at me during my time in Turkey was actually my own doing is, I’m afraid to say, a reflection of a person projecting negativity onto a victim – which is of course a whole new argument involving character assassination, belittlement and mnany other negative character traits developed in order to deny truth.

    As for the spitting incident – this happened at the Anit Kabir (the Ataturk Mauseleum) in Ankara. Contrary to the speculation in one of the above posts that this incident was actually my fault for associating with crazy people – the truth is that I was visiting the Anit Kabir with two friends and it was a STRANGER to me who spat in my face after she heard me questioning a painting depicting ANZAC soldiers bayoneting new born babies at Gelibolu (Gallipoli). Shall I say it again, The person who spat in my face was a member of the public, a stranger to me. I did not know this person!

    Now, to Lioness:

    You make some interesting points, but I categorically refuse to accept your commentthat lying is not a part of Turkish culture. Absolutely everyone I spoke to in Turkey; friends, mere acquaintances and the family of those people plus friends of friends and indeed academics at Ankara University (where I sat in on a thermodynamics (termodinamiks) lecture as part of my friends Chemical Engineering (kimya muhendisligi) course) and Bilkent University all discussed this and these issues with me and they all admitted that lying is a CENTRAL aspect of Turkish society.

    Lying, of course, is not a spoken and openly active topic of discussion in Turkey, as it isn’t in most countries – this is not my point at all. Rather, to lie as a way out of (or into) a situation is totally acceptable in Turkey. My experiences of this go back to 2003 when my ‘friend’ (whom I found a house and a job for) openly admitted that to secure the job she ‘just lied’ about having the correct visa to be able to work the amount of hours she needed. The culture of lying is deep rooted in Turkish society – it starts during the state indoctrination system of the cult of Ataturk and continues all the way through into adulthood. I have been told and experienced at first hand the antics of young Turkish women from the ages of 19 all the way through to the mid 30s. Turkey is a country split by modernity and Islamic tradition – the women do not know which way to turn – they want all the vices and superficial temporary enjoyments that westernization and capitalism provide them yet they want to maintain the honour of ‘family’ and ‘religion’. It’s like a state szchophrenia! Essentially, from my own experiences plus from what I have discussed with TURKs, the women lie in order to live the life they see their western contemporaries living (why should they miss out on the sex element when they have everything else like g-strings and McDonalds?) – yet they cannot of course openly admit doing this in order to protect the family name and their own conservative honour system for fear of being called ‘a hooker’ – they can’t even have a boyfriend for fear of being called a hooker – at least my friend ‘couldn’t’ in 2008 yet in 2006 she openly had a boyfriend.

    Essentially it’s a culture split down the middle in terms of secularism and traditional islam, just add into the mix the popularist popularism cult of Ataturk and the growing influence of westernism and you have one pretty clucked up situation whereby young Turkish women (competitive to the last in the hunt for their perfect western Islamist Ataturk loving macho sensitive non metrosexual 6′ ‘extremely financially comfortable’ banker from Samsun ‘guy’). The result is that the people don’t know themselves and so even if they do treat non- Turks in an awfully disgusting manner they don’t even realise that what they’re doing is wrong or unethical because everything in their culture (and the things outside their culture but whose upbringing indoctrinates them to apply only in line with Kemalism) is in place to prevent them from developing the maturity or integrity to provide them with the appropriate level of empathy to understand the world outside their own safety blanket.

    Once again – How can I be ignorant if I gave those people the ‘opportunity’’ to prove my hypothesis of them to be incorrect as it would have been unethical and un-empathetic to place my value judgements as a non-turk onto them as being the way they see the world. Surely it would have been ignorant of me to have not gone back to Turkey and given those people an ‘opportunity’ as if I had have done that I would have been guilty of exactly what my upbringing and education have allowed me to see as facets of non integrity.

    As for the comment by someone suggesting she doubted that I was actually ever in love with a Turk, well I’m afraid you’re totally wrong. The girl I loved eventually became the person who stole from me, exploited me and doubted me despite proving my integrity and honesty for close on half a decade. I think I’m pretty qualified!

    Opportunity – Education has facilitated me to provide this to people through positive elements of communication (ie listening).

    Opportunity – what the cult of Kemalism and Turkish educational indoctrination prevents.

    For anyone interested in further reading, may I suggest:

    Kemalism as a Language of Turkish Politics: Cultivation, Reproduction, Negotiation. By Leda Glyptis.

    Living up to the father: The national identity prescriptions of remembering Atatürk; his homes, his grave, his temple. By Leda Glyptis.

  44. Dear Former Turk Lover,

    First of all,I would like to thank you for book suggestions.

    Secondly,I would like to share my experince with an english man who I fell in love at the age of seventeen.As I was waiting to meet one of my friends at Istiklal Avenue of Istanbul,I saw a man who was running with a suitcase on his hand and a man trying to catch him…The man with suitcase diassappeared,the other one came to me in hurry and asked if I know english or not.I said “yes” and he told me the story of the man who stole his suitcase with his passport,credit cards,money…

    I took him to police station,as he was broke I made him to stay at one of my friend’s house,I shared all the money I have with him until his family sent him money from the UK.Through this time period,we fell in love or I thought like that.Spent three months together,accepted to be his witness at the court.The man was not found.As a result of this,the case was going on.He lied to me about many things,he used me to come to terms with this hard situation…As soon as I told him that I wouldn’t be able to go on like that(I didn’t mean it just I thought he loved me and he would change his behaviour towards me),he blamed me about cooperating with the man who stole his passport(the passport is important there than anything about suitcase) at the court.I wished to be dead at that moment…My cousins who are in charge in Turkish Army made my dear boy friend persuade to change his statement…He did…Then the man found in a month,three months later,his passport found sold to a man from East Turkey.You can easily guess how much trouble I had with my family through those times.

    I was totally disappointed,full of anger,crying everyday,depressed,not talking to anyone…I was accepted to one of the best universities Of Turkey in Ankara and couldn’t continue my education for a year because of depression.

    I hated him for a long time but just him.Never had negative thought about english people.This is just about the PERSON itself,,not whole nation he belongs.

    I have some friends from the UK,some lives in Turkey,some in the UK.One of them is a journalist in Ankara,married a turkish woman.He is helping me in english and in return I help him in turkish.He is one of the nicest persons that I have ever known.

    Culture of a country,yes,important…But those kind of behaviours just depends the person itself,it is about character.

  45. Hi Denis,

    I’m sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. I offer my sympathies to you and I must admit that there is a large element of British (and English) society that deems the kind of behaviour you were on the receiving end of to be ‘acceptable’ because they deem anyone non-British as a ‘lesser’ person and thus making it ‘acceptable’ to lie to and exploit – (in almost the same way as the people who did the same to me as I have been explaining).

    Again, you are also correct that this type of behaviour relates directly to individuals, however, I do believe that there are socio-cultural and behavioural reasons behind this type of behaviour that relate very much to the socialisation process which either builds or limits a persons empathetic filters. I would love to explain to you the many aspects of British society and culture which facilitated that man to explot you and believe me I criticise my own country and society and culture (or developing lack of) much more than I criticise Turkey.

    Essentially my point is that I believe Turkish girls to be liars for a number of reasons such as geography, socialisation, the growth and spread of capitalist ideology and westernisation, traditional islamic values, Kemalism, the state indoctrination system, Article 331, the state run Turkish media, the spread of internet communication and transient relationships and many other things that I have spoken about in my other posts – Turkey being unique because there are very few places in the world that sits in such a prime position in terms of politics, culture, geography and development.

  46. Hi Former Turk Lover,
    Thank you for informing us about British society and culture.I think it is not fair to critisize British Society through my limited experinces with some British People and should not make any comments about them as I never been in the UK.My opinion about your society cannot go further more than my experiences and what I heard from people who visited,being from the UK or been living there.I should better to go on expaining my opinions,my observations about Turkey and Turkish Society with respect to article of the page.
    There are some significant subjects that turkish women lie about which point on my personal observations and also declared by some sociologists.The basic thing that turkish girls lie about to their partners and the men to be married is about their virginity.Most of them act like a virgin and go through medical operations to get their virginity back before the marriage because of the aspect of the men and society.It is a fact,most men in Turkey wouldn’t pick up a non-virgin girl as a bride by ignoring her character and anything else she has.Therefore,most women choose to lie about their virginity and the number of boyfriends they had in the past.
    This is quite common in Turkey to lie to parents or other family members who are involved to their life.Especially,to older brothers and fathers are being lied.Their repressive behaviour on children and too protective approach cause girls to lie them about what they are doing in daily life.This becomes more significant as they grow up,being teenagers.This could be about going out at night or having a boyfriend.When they grow up enough,father or older brother’s role is replaced by husband.Too repressive and jealous husbands made them lie about even for very innocent and small things.It is a well-common thought,”he could misunderstand,he could get angry about it” without trying to explain or struggle for it,they choose the easy way.In my opinion,to let the men control their lifes in such a stupid way is majorily fault of women.It is much more serious if you regard East Turkey.Some women are being killed there because of not being virgin or seeing a boy without marriage.
    Some women lie about themselves in the name of marring a rich man.They think,all problems would be solved if they had more money.Again,choosing the easy way.Most of them are educated but they prefer to stay home as their husband earns enough.In my personal opinion,anything a person has without pain satisfies a person.To work,to built a career makes a person more self-confident and great opportunity for development.
    Secondly,I would like to talk about the connection between Article 331 and Turkish Society’s intolerancy about some common facts which I tried to explain above.I cannot talk about those subjects with many turkish people.I’ve been called “traitor” or “prostitute”,most of them swear to me.I used to talk more but I learnt to shut up and I just talk about them with some close friends or people who can respect and empatize my thoughts.Once,with a classmate I was talking about Kemalism.As soon as he heard about my thoughts,he asked me if I had some other kind of blood rather than turkish.As I talked about Armenians,he called me “prostitute” and should go to Europe with my foreign b/f and never come back to Turkey as I do not belong here.He is not talking to me anymore.This is an educated person,a university student.You can guess easily how much trouble I could have with the rest of Turkey.I was born here,I grew with turkish language and turkish culture.I belong to here.How dare he could say this because of my opinions are different than his.Unfortunately,most people in Turkey are like him or worse and this people’s behaviour are supported by Article 331 which is a show of fascism absolutely.
    The last thing I would like to talk about Armenians.Whatever you call it,”genocide,shame,immorality”,I just do not care.But what happened to these people were not fair on them.Shouldn’t go so far to 1917’s,I would like to share an event about the subject,just happened at 1970 in a small town of a city in Middle Black Sea Region.
    My mother is originally from a city in Black Sea Region,from a small town there with a population 30.000.My grandmother and grandfather lived there until their death.We used to go there during vacations,summer times to visit my Istanbul,my mother has close friendship with two armenian families.I was 14 or 15,we went to their house for the supper.I was really wondering why more of them has turkish or muslim names.Then I learnt,my mother grew up with those people.That summer,we went to my mother’s town to visit grandparents,so I asked to her about this as mother’s armenian friends always asking about the town and my grandmother.She told me the story about what happened in 1970 there and how it is covered by turkish media,also not recorded officially.Sunni muslims first started to destroying the only church they had,then their graveyards,in three months period,they started to attack their houses.About 200 persons were being killed,children,women,babies…Some armenians changed their religion,started to go to mosques every friday in the name of protecting their wifes and children.About 1000 armenian people migrated to Istanbul and most of them to Europe.All happened in a year.Those people just left everything they had there,their fields,their houses and moved to other cities.My grandmother told those to me crying,she said “those people are Godless,they cannot be muslims” and my grandparents were religious and conservative people.What I talk here is a small town of a city…it is told,this kind of things happened in many places covered by media and government.I do not agree with the idea “I am not responsible for what my ancestors did” because we are.If this kind of things still goes on in our country,we must fight against it,it is our responsibility.

  47. To Former Turkish Lover,

    As I read your recent post about Turkish girls and people,I see such an anger which is caused by disappointments and empty hopes.I agree that turkish people always find excuses and those excuses are usually lies if they don’t want to do something.In our culture,to say “no” to people is not welcomed.For ex,one of your close friends is asking to go out tonight.If they don’t want to go,they can’t simply say “I want to stay home tonight or spent some time on my own”,they prefer to lie such having an illness or headache.What I see now,it is really changing.I used to lie about those things,finding excuses…But I realized it makes me feel quilty and puts a distance between me and the persons I love.I just say the truth now,most of people I know are like that,they tell the truth.
    I hope your opinions will come to a balanced point someday.
    By the way,it is article 301,not 331.Sorry for the typing mistake I’ve made above.

  48. First of all, Turks have been around for more than 1000 years. Turkic language is AT LEAST 11.000 years old. Second of all, what poverty are they trying to escape from? You’re making Turkey sound as if it is a 3rd world country when CIA listed it as a developed country. Give me a break, man.

  49. Very interesting points you make Deniz, thanks for that. You are right to correct me, yes it is Article 301 not 331…sorry I had been watching the Iraq Inquiry on TV all about UN Article 1441 and for some reason 331 stuck in my mind.

    I think your longer of the above two posts relate extremely closely to the experiences I had in Turkey. You explain well the cultural and societal aspects that facilitate the lying – and my explanations in all of my posts essentially provide first person evidence of what you have explained, but in the context of a non-Turk and therefore from almost an outsider perspective.

    To be honest, I am not really ‘angry’ about my experiences in Turkey. I believe that having been through those bad experiences has made me a stronger person and has actually workled in my favour 100% because it has allowed me to see what I considered to be ‘friends’ for their true colours so my experiences worked to filter out the negative and toxic elements of my life. My point also is that had they not been such liars, had they not taken the easy option and had they actually used their brain in a positive instead of negative manner, they could have continued to have my friendship, which, after all, is a good thing as I’m a genuine person, willing to help others. Their behaviour, in my eyes, is their loss and fundamentally my going to Turkey worked in my favour because it allowed me to experience just what qualities I have and exposed the negative elements of those people’s characters.

    I still maintain my belief that Turkish girls are compulsive liars, sure not 100%, but considering this topic is about ‘Turkish girls’ (and therefore is a generalisation and thus a subjective topic (would it also be a generalisation to say “all Turkish girls are great!”)) and considering what you have confirmed as to the reasons behind why they lie and in light of my discussion about Turkey being unique in geography, culture, society, politics, history etc provides excellent insight into the causes of the lying.

    I do believe my points are balanced. If I hadn’t been to Turkey and had made my mind up then of course my opinions would not of course be balanced, yet I have been and have enough dialogue with Turks both in past, present and uture to place me in a great position to be able to discuss the issues.

    Again, thanks for your insight, it’s proving to be a very interesting progressive discussion.

  50. “Once again – How can I be ignorant if I gave those people the ‘opportunity’’ to prove my hypothesis of them to be incorrect as it would have been unethical and un-empathetic to place my value judgements as a non-turk onto them as being the way they see the world.”

    First of all, where did this “hypothesis” of them being bad people originally come from? Was this a prejudice you already had before you went to Turkey? And why do THOSE PEOPLE need an “opportunity” given specifically by YOU to prove your (already-acquired) hypothesis wrong? Is it the essence of their existence for you? To prove you wrong, surprise you as a bunch of aliens? What kind of a viewpoint is this? Why do the people in the ORIENT always need to prove themselves to the HONEST PEOPLE OF THE FIRST WORLD? And can’t you make the same criticism about the hypocrysy and the blasphemy in Europe, USA or any other part of the world and the mischiefs in their system that emerge in different forms? Are “those people” inferior from the beginning just because they were born as members of the Turkish system? It is indeed very very very disturbing for me to hear the word “lying” as CENTRAL to Turkish behavior! You must be joking, really.

    I did not deny your experiences, nor did I say you should also deny them: I just said, it is a poor approach to generalize everything according to your own experiences or according to the two books about a geographical area in THE EAST that you have read by only one author.

    Try reading Bernard Lewis, just for a change.

    As for the system, I must agree with you in the sense that we are stuck between the secular Kemalism and the Islamic tradition. This causes a certain sense of blasphemy but you cannot blame the women that have to survive under such suppressive conditions, and especially Turkish women for “having to lie to their parents” in order to lead the life they actually desire to live, after seeing that style of life idealized everywhere in the capitalist system, while on the other hand, being oppressed by their fathers, mothers, brothers and everyone. I mean if such lies are the consequence of a social structure, then there is noone to blame because of doing that! I’m quite surprised that you cannot grasp that very core idea!

    There are honor killings in some parts of Turkey, recently a “LIAR (AS YOU SAY)” Turkish girl was buried alive by her parents just because she talked to one of his male friends. I mean, from time to time lying is just a detail in the “survival” of an average Turkish girl. And things being thus, it is just unfair to label Turkish girls as “liars”. Way too unfair to be pronounced by a “former Turkish lover”.

    Dear Deniz Bacım,

    You should also bear these in mind as a Turkish girl, before justifying such “dandyism”.

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